Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: You are listening to the Freight Buyers Club, a home for those interested in international trade, shipping, procurement, logistics and air freight. In fact, all things supply chain in the Americas, Asia and beyond. This podcast is brought to you by your host, Mike King and produced in partnership with Demurco Express Group, a global 3 PL that specializes in managing logistics to, from and within the Asia Pacific region.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: Thanks to our sponsor, DE Express Group for supporting this episode of the Freight Buyers Club. And hello everyone, if you're tuning in for the first time, don't forget to like, comment or subscribe. I'm Mike King and today we're talking about the forces reshaping global trade in 2025.
Tariffs are rising, rules are tightening and transshipment and country of origin requirements are now front and center. Geopolitical tensions are rewriting trade agreements, while decarbonisation policies such as the EU's carbon border adjustment Mechanism are adding another layer of complexity. Oh, and on top of all that, the whole tariff strategy of the Trump administration is now under threat after the U.S. court of Appeals ruled at the very end of August that Reciprocal and Liberation Day tariffs were illegal.
So the case is now headed to the Supreme Court.
So what does all this mean for shippers? How should companies plan for the next five years of disruption? And where are the opportunities hidden amongst the uncertainty? To help me unpack these questions, I'm just joined by three outstanding guests. My first guest, many of you will know he currently uses the title independent supply chain and logistics expert, but was previously head of supply chain at the World Economic Forum, president and CEO of Geopost Intercontinental, and sits on the boards or advises multiple businesses, including the Supply Chain Innovation Network, which he founded. Hello, Wolfgang Lemaker.
[00:02:12] Speaker C: Thanks for the invitation.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: You're always welcome, Wolfgang. Next up we have Renault Anjuran, who has been helping companies develop and manufacture new products in Asia for 20 years. He co founded Agilian, which is a contract manufacturer based in South China that provides product development with transparency and control. Redo's background is mainly in manufacturing quality assurance of product reliability.
Welcome to the Freight Buyers Club, Renaud.
[00:02:39] Speaker D: Thank you Mike. Great to be here.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: And finally retaining once more and calling from Shanghai we have Cathie Liu, VP Global Sales and Marketing at Demerco Express Group, which helps companies from around the world navigate the choppy seas of global trade. Welcome back, Cathy.
[00:02:57] Speaker E: Hi Mike, nice to talk to you.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: Again as ever, Cathy, always a pleasure to have you on and I'll start with you if I may. I want to look at freight markets a little later on, but fairly First DEO hosted a US Tariff impact seminar in Shanghai a couple of months ago.
Was everybody expecting this trading uncertainty to continue?
And how have you been helping clients deal with it? Are you, are you seeing major changes in trade flows or procurement?
[00:03:25] Speaker E: Yes, we did a forum during May to talk about the tariff issue and the impact to the shippers or the customers who have the international transportation needs.
So we have invited all those guests to share and then we have our consultant KPMG there as the speaker. I think most of the topics at that time is talk about the trend of the tariff and how to make like the first sales in US to avoid this kind of tariff. And then we also offer some like a consulting duty drawback.
So to take back some of those kind of duty. But actually from May to now, the tariffs always changing. Right now like for China it's post another 90 days. And for other countries that looks like already settled. But you never know because it's like a trading and it's like a negotiation. So every day it can be something different.
So we follow that trend. And also when we talk about last year, everybody has focused for maybe the tariff, it's only impact for China. But by the end of the story you see it's actually the global thing, it's not only for China.
So under this kind of situation we are helping our customer like at the beginning they moving the manufacturing going to Southeast Asia and now they start from this year they start producing the finished goods. So most of the trade in the past is out of China to us, especially us. And now we see the trend that it's going more from Southeast Asia into us. So we believe this peak season will be more stay in Southeast Asia as origin compared to China. So for this we also looking for the different transportation solutions for our customers to see how to help them for the upcoming peak season.
[00:05:19] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll come back to that peak season. But contain to you Wolfgang, you're based in Hong Kong but travel widely.
How are you seeing sort of what Cathy touched on there about how companies but also governments in Southeast Asia are reacting to tariffs in this new trading world which we're seeing emerging in front of our eyes day by day, changing every single week?
[00:05:44] Speaker C: Yeah, I can say that the reaction is relatively modest. We have to see that we went through major disruptions over the last years.
We had Trump 1.0, we had Covid, now we have Trump 2.0.
I think what is new is the high level of uncertainty. But what I have always said is that the problems get bit bigger but we also get better.
And what a lot of people told me is that Covid taught them a lot. They have now a much better grip on managing disruptions. They have new tools in place, they have diversified their network.
It's not that we are operating on a single hub operation, it's in fact a portfolio based resilience that has been put in place.
So Asia has been kind of rewired and Asia is known for, for managing obstacles very well. We see this, there is a lot of activity. The China ASEAN Free Trade Agreement has just been upgraded to its version through 3.0. There is RCEP, there is a lot of investment going on. Collaboration is now seen more intensively. And I think that Asia did what it always does. It's very pragmatic and that results in a lot of confidence and in a lot of opportunities across the region.
[00:07:30] Speaker B: We'll come back to some of those opportunities a bit later. But some of this ability to build in resilience, it's quite difficult when we're talking about very long term plans, especially from the manufacturing side. Renault, you've been helping manufacturers in China for many years and obviously you know the alternatives to China very well. How, how has 2025 changed your view on where companies can diversify?
Do you feel more confident now about identifying the best plus one to China? And I say this in light of India now surprisingly facing a 50% tariff on exports to the US right.
[00:08:09] Speaker D: So people want to diversify to reduce their exposure to risk. Right. The thing is, the profile of the risk has changed quite a bit.
It used to be that you had the US friendly countries and the China friendly countries and then it seemed like they were headed for some kind of collision. And then this block would be all around China and this block would be all around the usa. Right. And so you wanted to not to have all your eggs in the same basket in the same block, let's say. So in case this is gripped, then you can still get things going over there.
And that used to make countries like India, for example, look very good with a very, very different risk profile. But then now the risk is more like who will Trump think favorably of? Right?
Like, is there even a logic? We have no idea. It can change from one week to the next, so the risk is more diffused and things are less predictable.
And I would say that since the situation is so volatile, the best advice is probably, hey, stay where you're at, try to get your operations optimized and so on. Like, work on the key suppliers that you have and see until the mess is cleared up. Let's say the smoke has cleared. It's probably the best advice in the short term.
Does that make sense?
[00:09:35] Speaker B: It makes sense, yes. I'm just trying to get my head around this short term versus long term planning we've discussed in the past. I think you've said that India can't be a copy paste of China and we've talked about things like workforce culture, training, bureaucracy, that there's big differences between the two countries.
But yeah, India was seen as this big possibility as an alternative to China. But then does tariffs just change all that? It doesn't matter. Like do those pros and cons of India versus China does that all out the window now? Because tariffs just confuse things too much and no one's going to make a move.
[00:10:13] Speaker D: So in the short term, yes, obviously 25% plus extra 25% works for the US. That's just a huge impediment to making anything in India for the US market.
Thinking of India as the replacement. It depends on the industry. A big share of mobile phones sold in the USA are actually assembled, just assembled in India.
It's, it's actually more than 50% on the first quarter.
Quite amazing. But then this is, this went up very fast and we go down very fast now and that's the type of situation changes based on our own experience. So we operate our own manufacturing facility close to Shenzhen in China. Now we're opening also one in India right at the wrong moment, I would say. But yeah, it's, it's quite a different country.
In China you can ramp things up very fast and just look at Foxconn and the other cms working for Apple and the others. You can have half a million or 1 million people basically on the same huge campus. In India, they found that they cannot do that. So they have a collection of different, smaller campuses that are closer to maybe where the workers can be and they don't want to have hundreds of thousands of people in the same place. That's just one small example. Big companies have to adapt. I mean all companies of all sizes have to adapt and really unlearn a lot of things that they learn in China and really get things green in India with different habits on a different foot.
[00:11:38] Speaker B: Definitely trade workarounds or tariff workarounds or tariff engineering how you classify goods. These are always things that have been part of the business of doing global trade. We saw a lot of this in Trump 1.0 as well. You've highlighted this. I think it was just gemstones on pins and We've talked about transshipments. Is there a line between smart supply chain strategy and outright customers customs risk. When you're looking at workarounds, if you.
[00:12:05] Speaker D: Want zero risk here, you have to ask for an advanced ruling from the U.S. customs and Border Protection.
[00:12:11] Speaker E: Right.
[00:12:12] Speaker D: A lot of people don't really want to ask for advanced ruling because they're afraid their demand might be denied. And then later, if they do it anyway, then it can be held against them. Right. So a lot of people are trying to guess, but basically, if you very simple example, you have a garment for ladies with pockets under the waist, okay, you get reclassified. You save a little bit of money on tariffs. That's basically no risk. It's been done for a long time by major brands, et cetera. Okay. But then when you have a product that maybe 1% of the time is used for educational purposes, but then you suddenly reclassify it as, you know, primarily an education product, because sometimes the tariff is zero on these kind of products, you are really exposing yourself for getting hit by an inspection by the US Customs because it's just not reasonable. So it's really what is really this product sold as, like, what are the main claims and what are people using it for? Right.
If you go against that, you better have a really good lawyer.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: Yeah. I think one of the big takeaways from our last podcast was whatever you're doing, if you're paying tariffs, keep all your paperwork because there might be a chance to get some of that money back.
I can hear you all nodding there. I see you all nodding. Sorry, Renault, just.
And Kathy or Wolfgang, if you want to come in on this as well. I don't know who's going to be the best expert on this. We had no clarity on the last podcast and I haven't been able to find out any myself. This is the new US Transshipment rules aimed at identifying. Pretty much aimed at identifying Chinese content in goods imported to the U.S. have you got any advice on how shippers should prepare for these stricter rule of origin checks?
[00:14:03] Speaker C: I have no. I have personally no advice, but I think it's good to hire, and we see this in the industry, to hire the best experts you can get and make them part of your team to reduce the risk. Because I think it's a lot of experience you need and a good network. So it comes down to the experts that really have navigated such situations in the past.
[00:14:30] Speaker B: Well, we've got Cindy Allen coming on the next podcast and maybe people want to tune in on that. She formerly led part of the cbp. I think she's quite busy at the moment.
Cathy, how is DeMarco advising clients to meet these new transshipment rules given they're still little clarity on how they'll be implemented?
[00:14:50] Speaker E: I think from our side we didn't see any very clear rule about how to define this kind of transcendent. But we know that there's a certain percentage of the raw material or the parts actually is export from China into Southeast Asia and then they make the assembly and then produce the finished goods. But so far I think we didn't see exactly like how many percentage will be identified or defined as transcendent. This part we not really clear.
So yeah, just like we also advise to our customers, you just apply the tariff as what mentioned and then keep all those documents. Maybe any by any chance, maybe we could have some, some rule or regulation can allow us to help them to make the duty drawback, Something like that.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: Wolfgang, I want to widen this out. We've been speaking for actually quite a long time now. Many, many.
I did look back through some of our old interviews after Brexit, you told me companies had shifted from strategy to contingency mode.
So now with tariffs and new trade rules, are customs processes keeping up or are they simply creating bigger choke points? Or I guess maybe what I'm saying is what we're seeing develop now is this Brexit on a far larger scale.
[00:16:10] Speaker C: One could see that we have seen with Brexit that delays at the border can be a disaster for supply chains, for supply in the country. So the disruption risk is pretty high currently.
I'm quite surprised that we don't see or hear more noise around this. So still it seems to work somehow.
This is a problem solving industry and the contingency mode I think is now the standard.
Everybody needs to see what they can do in volatile times. And again, what I hear from the people I'm talking to is that first they feel comfortable with what they have put in place. But on the other hand, somebody said it very clearly. We have production almost all over Asia. We thought we were diversified and safe. We are absolutely not.
And what helps them in this specific case was he said, luckily we have a very good digital twin and can run models all the time and can upload new tariffs when they come out, which gives us a good foundation for the right moves based on the modeling and the recommendations.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: Wolfgang Howler, would you describe or characterize this new world? Are we moving from WTO multilateralism to maybe a spaghetti bowl of bilateral and regional trade deals. And in your view is this fragmentation permanent or can a new rules based system be rebuilt at some point down the line?
[00:17:57] Speaker C: Well, we have seen this already for a while. This is not due to the tariffs. We have seen a lot of bilateral agreements.
We have seen a weakening of the WTO for many years.
So this is all not new. We could end up in an opposite situation when you see the MPIA which is the arbitration mechanism where 56 WTO members come together and say this is a tested mechanism, we don't care whether WTO functions and can do the job. We just agree that we respect the rules. Which shows that you can put mechanisms in place without the institutions, which is in fact a very interesting development. Instead of waiting for a revival of the wto, you need a critical mass of trading partners which you could brand under friends shoring. It's like minded people that agree we trade under certain rules, so but currently we have a lot of diversity in that landscape.
[00:19:08] Speaker B: We talked before we came on air about India's Modi going to see Xi over in China timing very nicely with these new tariffs on India seemingly pushing China and India to some sort of rapprochement because they've been at loggerheads for most of the last sort of decade. So this is quite a breakthrough. Are we seeing the rest of the world start to look for alternatives, whether they're geopolitical or trading alternatives that almost cut out the US Whether it's new trade deals or it's regional alliances or it's brics or whatever. What's your view on that, Wolfgang?
[00:19:44] Speaker C: I first think that nobody wants to bypass the US but with the current situation one has to consider what is happening. And we see this aggressive search of Chinese companies for new markets, for new possibilities.
So it's not a conscious bypassing, it is just accepting realities and trading more with people that make it easier for them.
So that's my take on this.
[00:20:19] Speaker B: Okay, let's take a short break. When we come back we'll turn to freight markets the future and we might even ask ask how all this is playing out in terms of efforts to decarbonize supply chains.
[00:20:30] Speaker A: This podcast is proudly produced in partnership with DeMurco Express Group, a trusted provider of global shipping and contract logistics services in Asia, Europe and North America. DeMurco's particular strength is in Asia where it gives shippers the freight capacity and local market expertise to streamline freight movements to and from the region, particularly for trans Pacific lanes. With 130 forwarding and logistics Locations across China, India and Southeast Asia. Demurco connects Asia with the world like no other. Global3PL. You are listening to the Freight Buyers Club.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: Welcome back. Turning to freight markets on 28th of August, shipping consultancy Drury reported that its World Container Index had fallen for an 11th straight week. Trans Pacific spot rates are collapsing as US retailers slow down imports. While the Asia Europe trade is also seeing spot freight rates decline decline despite relatively healthy demand.
Most of this is down to excess capacity even though a lot of those ships are diverting around Southern Africa or almost all of them.
What does this mean for shippers right now? Is this good news, we've got cheaper shipping or is this just a sign that we've probably got more volatility to come? Cathy?
[00:21:43] Speaker E: I think yeah for the ocean freight wise it's really.
I think the rate is keeps flat and we didn't see any sign for the peak season in the rest of the year and especially there's, I mean there's more capacity in the market because during the pandemic all those shipping line actually deployed a lot of those big vessels and they add a lot of capacity into the market. But this year I think maybe also because of the tariff but both US and Europe the buying power is not as strong compared with before.
So we didn't see that much demanding in the market for the ocean freight and for the air freight I think it will be a little bit different. We still think the peak season will be back from end of September like normal. But this year the peak season will be more related in Southeast Asia into US compared with China into US because the demand from China is still very soft not only because of tariff but also related with E commerce.
So we will see the demand will grow in in Southeast Asia especially Vietnam, Thailand and Malaysia. That's how we see and also another reason why it will be peak because of there's not that much capacity in those markets especially for long haul into US or into into Europe. This is actually also related with the construction at the different airport. I mean even the airline like to add on more flights but maybe it's not really possible because of the ground handling capacity everything it's not that cannot support this kind of growth. So we will see the disruption will be in those areas into U.S. and Europe during the fourth quarter. Yeah, that's how we see but for China I think it will be still slow. So what I think most of the global player including us we are doing is that we are trying to connect Southeast Asia's freight into China and then connect China's capacity into US So it somehow can release the pressure from origin in Southeast Asia. But on the other side you also can fill up the empty capacity out of China. So it's a kind of win win situation for both sides.
[00:24:05] Speaker B: Yeah, that's very interesting Kathy. The US is sticking on air freight.
This is particularly relevant to it. The US has ended the de minimis exemption which allowed packages worth less than $800 to enter duty free.
Just to give listeners a view on this. In 2024, 1.36 billion packages entered under this exemption. That was goods worth 64.6 billion.
It also drove that air cargo market through most of last year. This is the temu, this is the sheen. It's Alibaba people that ship in direct to customers in many B2C shipments but using air cargo. So what does this change mean for shippers and how their transport partners are adapting and what does it mean for the peak season?
[00:24:54] Speaker E: Yeah, I think it's impact a lot on the peak season, especially out of China. Because in the past that E commerce title almost occupied over 50% of the air freight cargo market in the past especially after pandemic after since 2023 but since this year after the diminish be removed and we have seen that the demand for E commerce out of China into US dropped 30% same time compared with last year for the 30% actually it's quite a lot. And that's also why from now since this year May that the capacity from China into US actually is more than demand because most of those E commerce players like T Moshi they have stopped shipping directly and most of those goods they are moving those let's say frequent ordered the commodities they're moving via ocean freight into US and they find a warehouse over there and then to start the inventory in US and then do the last mile delivery from their side. So the B2C mode somehow changed to B2 B2C mode. Yeah. So means that there will be less demand on air freight but switch to ocean freight.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, that'd be a blow for many people in that market. I've been doing a bit of research into how this is affecting different industries. It's not just about fast fashion publishers are also affected. I had a chat to a few people we might, we might come back to this in a bit more depth in future episodes.
My research said was a just a little bit of background. So big publishers basically ship full container loads into the US mostly from Asia. Smaller importers piggyback those operations.
But the smaller players are also shipping B2C direct to students and colleges.
Cathy, is that. Is that typical? So this is sort of. We don't really cover publishing logistics that much. But I guess there's not just that sector that's affected. It must be other sectors out there beyond fashion and publishing that are also being hit by this de minimis change.
[00:27:07] Speaker E: Yeah, sure. I think not only those fashion but all those. Let's say they take advantage of the diminish in the past while sending more parcels. Now it's all be impacted and then we that that's why I think we will see more general cargoes in the market compared with before because that's somehow it's. It's like a switchback because you know before COVID that the in the market is more general cargo. And then because of the COVID the pandemic we see more online shopping, e commerce start from US Europe. Then those general cargo actually they start to split to small small parcel and to send directly because of those diminished rules.
And now they just switch back the small parcel back to the general cargo to do the consolidation. Yeah, so because I think just because of the. In the past the 800 US dollar the diminished is really attractive. So they changed the way but now I think they back to the old ways. B2B 2C. Yeah. To make the transportation and also under this way I think there's more can be moved via ocean freight compared to air freight.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: Wolfgang Renault, any thoughts on how freight market volatility is impacting business?
[00:28:25] Speaker C: Yeah, I can say for me it's important to have the right mindset.
And I see volatility as a structural condition that raises costs, disrupts lead times and forces us to redesign networks, inventory contracts, routing.
And what I expect is that people look at their own capabilities to manage volatility. And I have said what it does right. And on the negative all the impacts on the positive it will bring us to the next level, I hope.
[00:29:05] Speaker D: Yeah, I would just say that what I've seen is that for products for which freight cost is a big part of the landed cost, people maybe try to avoid certain times of the year so they plan maybe their production timing a little bit differently. But apart from that there's not much they can even really plan because they plan ahead like you know, one, two months ahead and then who knows what it's going to be.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: Okay, thank you for that. Wolfgang, back in 2022 you told me coalitions and partnerships are the only way to decarbonize supply chains.
Do tariffs and carbon border taxes accelerate that transition or maybe do they make it harder?
[00:29:48] Speaker C: I haven't changed my mind. Right. It is everybody's business challenge to reduce carbons. We are in a connected industry or carbon emission.
Do tariffs make it harder? Of course, every barrier make it hard.
We have a lot of distraction from the decarbonization discussion now and I think if the mechanisms are right, if there is carbon border mechanisms, if they are right, if they are transparent, if they are effective, they can help. But there are a lot of ifs.
What is for me currently more concerning is that economic power is used to slow down the decarbonization effort and expand the use of fossil fuels. And this is the efforts of the United States to influence countries to not support the IMO vote which is upcoming. So that's a real concern.
Again, I believe that the world was always volatile. It got a little bit worse, discussions got always sidetracked. But at the end we have no choice. We have to decarbonize.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think the US got a carve out with its trade deal with the EU on carbon border taxes as well as well as pulling out of the IMO deal that's due to be finalized later this year. And I'll probably try and pop down to the IMO to cover that.
[00:31:28] Speaker C: I know, but the carve out is very vague.
The commitment is about considering flexibility.
That means everything and nothing. So there is no enforceable language. Clear and enforceable language so far that.
[00:31:47] Speaker B: Could go for quite a lot of these trade deals, full stop. Actually, Renault, is decarbonization a priority for your clients when they're organizing their procurement or production or their supply chains?
[00:31:58] Speaker D: Not really.
We did mostly with electronic products also.
Fast cycles being faster to the market, things like that trump everything else.
For example, for burning materials have been collecting data to do lifecycle assessments on some of their best selling products. Usually because their big customers are asking for it, but that's about it.
There's been some talk about designing eco design.
Right. But again, it's low on the priority. It is not a priority. I would not say that.
[00:32:34] Speaker B: Is it less of a priority now than it was maybe two years ago?
[00:32:39] Speaker D: Probably yes.
[00:32:40] Speaker B: That seems to be where we're going, right? I mean even from a journalist point of view, I mean I used to get like 10 press releases with some sort of decarbonization or sustainable supply chain message in a week and that's just dropped off a cliff. I almost never get them now. I am going to go to London International Shipping Week now and cover the Supply Sustainable Logistics Conference. So we'll see maybe what people say there. Kathy, from Demo's point of view, how are shippers factoring decarbonization into their freight decisions at the moment? Is it a real driver or, or is it just secondary to all of these other things we've been discussing today? Is it, is it dropping off the priority list?
[00:33:22] Speaker E: Yeah, I think I agree with you, Mike. It's like two years ago, it's like a fashion world for the, for, for go green. This kind of, there's a lot of promotion related with this topic, but now it's really less priority. And also because everything, if you change to green, like in air freight, if you change to soft, it always means the extra spending. Yeah, it's quite costly. So I think most of those companies not put this under priority. I think still a couple of European companies, they are focused on that because I believe that in Europe they have more structure or more ways to evaluate compared with Asia or us.
So for European customers, they are still looking for somehow to reduce the cabin emission. But for others, I think the priority is now getting lower.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: Right, okay, thanks for that.
As we're finishing up here, I want to look ahead to the future. Maybe we've got a few takeaways or a bit of advice for our listeners. Renault, you've spent years guiding companies through supplier moves and diversification. If you had one piece of advice for shippers and manufacturers planning their supply chains over the next five years, what would it be?
[00:34:40] Speaker D: Try to have some level of visibility, some level of transparency into the supply chain. So I see a lot of people who buy products from company X but have no idea where the key components are coming from and so on. And when you start to see a lot of risk in a country, for example, China, then you plan to remove your product. Well, your product is not portable because you don't know what is made of. You don't know where things are made. And if maybe your supplier says, oh, you know what, we can make it in, I don't know, Vietnam. Okay, but will 90% of the value of the product actually be from China?
You don't know. Does that expose you to this trans shipment, trump style kind of definition?
Maybe.
Some people say very probably.
But if you don't have visibility on these kind of things, again, your product is stuck where it is and you're at the mercy of the supplier might do things that actually pull you in at risk. So that's my suggestion.
Visibility on Tier 1, Tier 2 suppliers, if possible.
[00:35:55] Speaker B: Wolfgang, let me put a similar question to you. If you were advising government boards or supply chain leaders right now, all things I know that you do on a regular basis.
What's the single most important step they should take to prepare for the next phase of global trade that we've been discussing today?
[00:36:12] Speaker C: Yeah, it's my mantra.
Focus on the combination of talent and technology.
Talent that can handle technology. And this is a bit what Arnaud said. This implies visibility. This implies digital twinning. This implies also AI. We haven't mentioned the I once in that conversation.
And then technology, but technology that puts the human in the center because it is this magic formula that makes the difference. And once you have worked something out, then pressure test it. Pressure test the solution. Consider war games with suppliers, customers and authorities. Because if we talk about talent and technology, this doesn't stop at the border of your company.
You need to upgrade the entire supply chain. Otherwise you will get nowhere.
[00:37:08] Speaker B: Okay, I'm just going to follow up on that point there because you are right. We've probably steered away from tech particularly, but with all of this complexity that we've been discussing, there are more tariffs, more rules, more supply chain blockages.
Is this the moment where companies really need to and have to turn to technology and AI for solutions, or is there still a gap between the hype and the data that's maybe available?
[00:37:34] Speaker C: For me, it's the moment for technology.
I believe that we have seen a major push forward during COVID and you could have made the same argument during COVID but we have seen a major push forward.
I believe that the leaders of tomorrow have leveraged, will have leveraged today's situation to invest in technology.
But again, during COVID Covid was a super experiment. We have seen that the combination of good people that could fill the gaps when technology failed us and technology that could support the people made the difference.
So for me, it's the moment for technology, the moment for investing. And as I have explained before, the more advanced companies I speak to, they say, we are so happy that we did so much investment into technology that we scouted the landscape that we know what providers are there, that we have much more options to navigate.
[00:38:37] Speaker B: Also this today and Kathy, a final word on freight markets for shippers. Is your advice to prepare for more volatility, more volatility ahead, or are we moving into a both in ocean and air? Are we moving into a period where we're going to see excess supply?
[00:38:57] Speaker E: I think now it's still, I mean, the market is a lot of uncertainty because in the past we have a very traditional peak season for both and ocean but start from this year. It's always related with tariff. We see the peak season always start maybe one month before the tariff goes expired.
So this kind of situation I think will lasting because we still see maybe some of those countries like to make the negotiation or trading with us.
So this kind of trend will become an uncertainty. That's what we see.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: And that's it for today. Cathie Liu, VP Global Sales and Marketing at Demarco Express Group WolfgangLamacher Independent Supply Chain and logistics experts and Renault Anduan, founder of Jillian it has been my pleasure.
[00:39:45] Speaker D: Thank you. Thank you Mike.
[00:39:46] Speaker E: Thank you.
[00:39:47] Speaker C: Thank you very much Mike.
[00:39:48] Speaker B: You're always very welcome. Much gratitude to Karen Ball and Tom Matthews for all their production guile and skill. And thanks again to the America Express Group for sponsoring this episode. We'll be back soon. I'm Mike King. Thanks for listening to the Freight Buyers Club.
